Small Talk: Big Ideas About Little Learners
Season 1, Episode 1: Leading for Change: Rhian Evans Allvin and Mark Ginsberg
TRANSCRIPT
(Music + children playing sounds)
NARRATOR: You’re listening to Small Talk: Big Ideas About Little Learners, brought to you by NAEYC, the National Association for the Education of Young Children. As we celebrate our centennial year, we’re diving into conversations that matter now – to little learners and the big people who show up for them, bringing you stories of struggle, inspiration, and hope for our children’s future.
MICHELLE KANG: Welcome to Small Talk. I'm NAEYC CEO Michelle Kang and I'm so glad you're here.
If you work with young children, you already know that what happens in the early years shapes everything that comes after. For 100 years, NAEYC has been the professional home for people who believe in the power of early learning. We've set standards, advanced the profession, and championed the idea that every child deserves a great start.
This podcast is one of the ways we're marking our centennial year—by making space for the stories, ideas, and voices that define this field. Each episode, we'll sit down with educators, leaders, researchers, and advocates to explore what it means to do this work and why it matters.
Today’s episode is a conversation about leadership—specifically, what it means to lead an organization like NAEYC through moments of real challenge and change. So, I've invited two people who know this firsthand – my predecessors. Mark Ginsberg, now president of Towson University, served as NAEYC’s CEO from 1999 through 2010, and Rhian Evans Allvin, the founder of Brynmor Early Education & Preschool, led NAEYC from 2013 through 2022.
Between the three of us—along with our colleague Jerlean Daniel, whom you'll hear from later this season—we've led this organization through the Great Recession, a global pandemic, shifts in federal policy, growing concerns about children’s safety and well-being, and fundamental changes in how the field thinks about itself. We've had to make hard decisions, take public stands, and figure out how to keep moving forward when the ground is shifting.
I think there's a lot we can learn from each other. Let's get into it. Mark, Rhian, welcome to Small Talk!
MARK GINSBERG: Thank you!
RHIAN EVANS ALLVIN: Thank you.
MARK: Great to be with you.
MICHELLE: Mark, let’s start with you. When you took the helm of NAEYC in 1999, what was the state of the early childhood field?
MARK: Well, you know, I think we were really learning during that period, not just in 1999, but around that time. There was almost a renaissance of understanding about the importance of the early years. That the early years were some of the most important years in a person's life, and in particular, the period zero to three were probably the most significant time in anybody's life. And, and so I think the, that understanding which we had known in the field for many years had become much more part of the lexicon of society.
And with that we began to see, I think, a growing interest in supporting early childhood education, a growing interest in thinking about, preschool as an educational as well as a social and emotional and cognitive, social, kind of a comprehensive developmental framework. And I think it was a time when the field began to really evolve into what it is today, so it was a very generative time from my perspective.
MICHELLE: Yeah. And you know, in that time, there were so many things that happened, but in particular, I'm thinking about the Great Recession and it decimated early childhood funding. How did you navigate that, when so many of our members were losing programs and jobs? I mean, early childhood was very much in crisis.
MARK: Well, we worked very hard to try to convince people in the policy realm about not just the importance of early childhood education conceptually, but the importance of it financially. And also that early childhood education was not just important for children. It was very important for families who were in the workforce who were seeking to be in the workforce, and that was a kind of a systemic interconnection between child and family development and the economic vitality of communities. And that was a message that resonated, but it wasn't an easy time.
I can remember, I can tell stories about being on the Hill and talking with members of Congress and their staffs and people having an intuitive understanding, but really not yet there. And, I think NAEYC has done a fabulous job through the years in not just convincing people about the importance of the early years, but in promoting the field and the work we do as something that's not just important for the country, but really essential, essential for America.
MICHELLE: Yeah. That narrative of, “how does early childhood relate to each of us and where does it make a difference,” is something that has been a narrative that continues to come up over and over and over again. Unfortunately, we're still saying it today. It’s astounding to look back and say, wow, those were the times we were talking about how important the profession and we're still talking about it today.
I want to move to you, Rhian. You came into leadership after the recession in 2013. Talk about what it was like to step into leadership at that time?
RHIAN: Well, I think, you know, in so many aspects of early childhood education, we are both making enormous progress and waking up every morning saying, “Why haven't we made more progress?” I think probably all three of us have experienced that.
So I, in 2013, politically, it was the second term of the Obama administration, the last few years of that. And then, the first Trump administration term, and then, COVID, and so it was a really complex time. I think, in thinking about what Mark said about this profound awareness around brain science and early childhood development, you know, in 1999, the early social emotional development, the early cognitive development, the early math and language skills that you can't get that back. Right? When I think back over that time, I think both during Mark's time and mine, you would think that our policy and quite, you know, literally the public dollars that aligned to early childhood of education would have caught fire more and taken off more given how decisive, decisive this research is. And I think that's the piece that feels like Groundhog Day a little bit.
MARK: You know, you're talking about “Neurons to Neighborhoods,” and one of the things I think we learned during that period was that quality really matters and that the quality of services that were available to young children varied so dramatically across the country.
And I forget who it was, who coined the phrase, but I used to use it continually. That quality matters, but quality costs, and that the investment we make has to be mirrored by the quality that we engender. And, and those were important messages, but I think you mentioned also the labor issues, the workforce issues.
I remember back in the early 2000s, that's when the concept of “worthy wage” became a household word in early childhood. And unfortunately it still remains, I think, a very critical issue.
RHIAN: And I think about this landscape in early childhood of so many extraordinary organizations at the federal level, at the state level, making a difference on behalf of kids.
And yet we still haven't caught up in defining this profession the way we have to, and I think that's so important for both NAEYC’s history and for our future, and how that gets grounded in, in the science of early childhood education.
MARK: It’s a very important issue -- was then and still is.
MICHELLE: Right. Well, it also feeds this narrative of, of “anyone can do early learning,” which is one of the most harmful parts of when you think about what the brain science tells us about this important time in children's lives.
We know what the science says. When I listened to both of you and I think to where we are today, I wish we could say more about the progress we've made and yet we have had glimmers of progress. I'm thinking about the time of the pandemic. I had arrived at the organization as our chief strategy and innovation officer, working with you, Rhian.
And you know, I came in thinking about all the opportunities that we had to grow and to be able to continue to advance the messages around quality and around the essential workforce. Then we had something that nobody expected. What was it like to lead an organization whose members were suddenly on the front lines of a public health crisis?
RHIAN: We, we linked arms, Michelle, so you know most of what happened, but I think, you know, I think the weight of the field relying on NAEYC to hold them up in a time of maybe the most extraordinary crisis that we've all faced, you know, period. And figuring out how to pivot very quickly, which is not always easy to do. I even think from an internal perspective. I think people think NAEYC is huge and well-resourced and all the things, and it's actually pretty scrappy as associations go.
But I think the most urgent item was getting the resources for the field, and I mean, we were able to get in the first round, $50 billion for early childhood education. And that, in my opinion, played a large role in saving the field through what could have been just, I mean, there were early childhood programs, they were putting their payroll on their credit cards, like, it was crazy.
MARK: No question Yeah, I think the association literally not just saved the field, but probably more importantly, really saved the, that time of life for young children. And that's what's so important to me about the organization is that it's done things for the field, but always for the public good, always what's in the best interest of children and families.
RHIAN: And right in the midst of all of that too was, the George Floyd killing. And that in the midst of this economic crisis and this public health crisis, we also had an identity crisis as a country. And it really, I mean, NAEYC has a very, very long history of navigating all of the racial trauma that comes with lost and forgotten children. And quite frankly, the story of how we've built this field on the back of mostly a Black and brown female workforce. And so there was, it was an obligation and an urgency for NAEYC to play a critical role in that moment as well too.
And so, navigating that complexity was tough, but I'm very proud of how NAEYC as a whole professional association, not just the staff, but the board, our affiliates came together in these messages that again, we were able to navigate that and get an initial chunk of $50 billion with more money to come after that.
MICHELLE: Yeah. Those moments where we look into who we are and what we stand for, to me, are probably among the ones that you know, I believe for all of us, where we step back and say, “Yeah, what we are doing here is standing for the principles of every child being able to be supported with the adults that are nurturing them so that we truly are making this investment in the future. And, you know, we're at moments now where we're, we're looking into ourselves and saying again, like, what are we standing for. We’re standing for the fact that every child matters.
That very much doesn't always get seen, but through the workforce surveys that we've done and through being able to elevate their stories in places of influence. That's part of the strength and the power of this association is to say, “No, this is what early childhood looks like, and we're going to put a face to it. We're gonna put names to it, and we're gonna tell you how this is making a difference. And we're gonna lock arm with parents and other organizations who understand how much this matters, and we're going to shout that from the places that we have been given platforms.
MARK: You know, it's another piece of that too that I think mainly makes sense to speak to as you raised that issue, Michelle. And that's the association's role in setting standards and defining what quality means, particularly through accreditation. During my time, we truly rewrote the book on accreditation because it was, candidly, pretty troubled at that moment. When I came into the association role, the president was the person I have utmost respect for and continued to think about as a dear friend, (Sharon) Lynn Kagan.
And I can remember the first week that I was hired. She goes, “We’ve got a real challenge, and you and I are gonna have to sort this out with the help of many people. But how to recreate an accreditation system that's functional, that speaks to today's standards and that upholds the values that we think are important for the quality of care for children and services for children.” And I know that continues to be a challenge, but you know, at the time, less than 7 percent of programs were accredited. And I don’t know if that continues to be a big issue. But we created a set of standards and took some very bold positions about the education and training of professionals about the kinds of things that needed to take place within centers.
You know, I'm, I'm very proud of those times, but I'm very proud of the association understanding that in taking those positions, they were first and foremost thinking about what's in the best interest of children.
MICHELLE: Yep. And that continues in the work that we have done to continue to update early learning program standards and accreditation. We’ve been able to gather data of how many children and, and educators are now being served in these high-quality environments, and so we know right now that we serve half a million children in high quality early learning environments.
RHIAN: Wow! That's remarkable.
MICHELLE: It's exciting to think about that many children; we need to double that.
MARK: Because the half billion children who are in accredited programs, I think are only a subset of the children who are benefiting by accreditation because there are many, many more programs that may not yet be accredited or for a variety of reasons haven't sought accreditation, but they take those standards, they take that conceptual framework and that model, and they say, “This is what we strive to become.”
RHIAN: Coming to NAEYC and feeling this heavy, heavy weight about understanding and knowing what had come before me in order to, to kind of lean into what I needed to do and this sense of a profound gratitude that my role was only in this hundred-year-old organization, which, let's pause on that for a minute. Like, how many organizations become a hundred years old? I, I don't know. Not many, right? And, and I remember this sense of, okay, I, my role here is writing a few chapters, like it is writing a few chapters. It is gonna, it has this incredible history before me. It's gonna have this incredible history after me.
MICHELLE: You know, we, we can look back now on a century of progress, there's always going to be challenges on every front, politically, financially. Um, and of course, top of mind is always how do we make sure that the children and the adults caring for them feel safe and protected? And in this moment that comes to mind over and over again. So what advice do you each have, you know, as we think about the moment we're in for the people working in the field?
MARK: You know, I've said this to my teams at Towson, but I'll use a metaphor that, airplanes, when they take off and they try to get lift, they don't take off into the wind. They take off against the wind. The winds are blowing pretty hard right now and they're blowing against us and many others in our nation.
And I think we have to use this moment in time when the winds are blowing at us, not with us, that we use it as an opportunity to lift, to continue to lift the field, continue to lift who we are, continue to lift the values and the perspectives we have, to not lose sight. Now's the time, I think more than ever, to stay mission driven and values led, and to do that with clarity, to do that with purpose, to do that in a strategic way, but to do that in an unrelenting way.
RHIAN: Mark said it beautifully. The only thing I would add is I think, for those of us in positions of power and privilege, we have an even deeper obligation to stand up on behalf of the folks who are being targeted right now. And that may feel scary every once in a while, but that is not nearly as scary as what they're going through.
And I think about, as you mentioned, I now run an early childhood program and I look at the women and men who show up every morning leave whatever they're facing at the door -- which, you know, many of them are, experiencing the economy on their own margins --- leave that at the door to show up for these children every day and create this environment that we know optimizes their development regardless of what is happening, and we can never take that for granted.
MICHELLE: And my favorite aspect of this role is the chance to sit with and visit with educators. And I think about you, Rhian, now you’re now having, you know, those environments where you're creating places of joy where children can learn through play, and where educators are creating magic and curiosity. I had the chance just recently to visit the childcare program where my sons were – a NAEYC-accredited program -- and found when I returned to the program that the infant teacher that was taking care of my two younger sons is still there. And, not gonna lie, there were some tears on both sides. Because you realize what a formative time that is for you as a parent, but also for the children. And I now look at my sons who are teens and you know what, what, you know, what they've become. And I think about those early moments of what they created and feel so deeply indebted to Paulette and to other teachers like her who continue to pour their heart and souls into this work and need an organization like NAEYC and others and to use our opportunities of being able to speak up and speak out on their behalf, and to me, it's one of the great privileges of this role and this organization, but also a great responsibility that we have.
RHIAN: A hundred percent. And you know, Michelle, that really, the two things that I am most passionate about and hope that NAEYC continues to just play a really strong leadership role: One is in defining this profession and creating a professional field of practice for early childhood educators. It buoys them and it gives them, it gives them compensation in a different way. It gives them structure. It creates a profound, um, responsibility and definition to what they do. That is not just anybody showing up. That is so important. The second thing is the economics of early childhood education.
We always talk about the payers in the system as parents are payers. The federal government as payers. The state government as payer. Employers are payers, but the payers that we always leave out are the professionals because with creating suppressed wages, they are subsidizing this marketplace. They are actually the other payers in the system that, again, show up. They bring the joy. They do this extraordinary work, and they are carrying the burden of the economics on this field on their backs because we suppress their wages, and we have to own that, and we have to say it over and over again.
MARK: Yeah, it's a fabulous point. And, and you know, the Achilles heel of early childhood education remains the economic realities and, and the investment value in early childhood is so great that it's tragic that these financial conundrums continue to plague the field. It, it really is one of the great tragedies of our country, I think.
MICHELLE: It's something that hasn't changed over decades.
MARK: It’s not changed over decades. And we've been doing this collectively for 30 years. And when you think about it, that was the big issue 30 years ago, and it's the big issue today. And, you know, it is a difficult problem to solve. I don't want to minimize its complexity, but at the same time, we can't minimize its importance.
RHIAN: Now is a great time as states are looking at universal childcare and that sort of thing.
MARK: There's been great progress.
RHIAN: There has been great progress, and you actually see data since COVID on wages that have increased. Ironically, it has suppressed demand for the market a little bit because it's so expensive.
But as states are making huge progress on universal childcare and that sort of thing, that has to be an accountability piece, that, however the cost modeling is happening, that educators, practitioners, providers are at the table, just like they're at the table negotiating rates in healthcare, just like they're at the table and negotiating rates with insurance companies, that they're at the table negotiating what the cost of care is because if we make promises to serve everybody and then can't afford to do it, then I, I guarantee you what's going to go first is the salaries and wages for the workforce.
MARK: I think childcare is beyond affordable for some families. I've got two of my own children both have young children and they're spending more annually than is the cost of students coming to my university for their tuition. And that's just not sustainable either. We’ve gotta understand this is a public good that is not just for an individual, but it literally is potentially transformative and will be transformative for our nation.
RHIAN: A hundred percent -- a public good that can't be financed on the backs of the workforce.
MARK: Or in families.
RHIAN: Or in families. Absolutely.
MICHELLE: Yeah. I like one of the terms that sometimes said that early education workers are the workforce behind the workforce. And that's something else that, again, you know, you bring forward and you think about you, we need these to be good jobs. We need these to be jobs that, you know, don't have people living on public assistance in order to do this job.
Let's hope that maybe, in another decade we're not having the same conversation again about, some of the challenges that all of us have encountered in the time that we have been leaders. What do you carry from your time leading NAEYC that is still with you today?
MARK: You know, for me it's still a deep appreciation for those who are doing this work. Uh, I, I was in a childcare center the other day with my grandson and granddaughter and, and I was talking to some of the providers there. When I got back to his parents' house, my son and daughter-in-law's house, what I realized that his teacher was my daughter-in-law's teacher when she was at the same preschool -- 35 years ago. And I came away from that with just such a deep appreciation, knowing how hard this work is, how difficult it is to be day in and day out on the floor with 4-year-olds and 3-year-olds and 2-year-olds, and infants and toddlers. And so appreciative for what these folks do. And I want to say too, I hope we've collectively had a contribution, but that contribution in some ways pales as I've felt the other day in comparison to the contributions of this teacher, in this preschool, with this child, and multiply that by the half a million children who are in NAEYC-accredited programs. I take away a deep appreciation and respect.
RHIAN: I agree. And I mean, there's so many things I take away from my time at NAEYC, but NAEYC creates this community and this place and this sense of being and belonging to a field that otherwise is often an afterthought.
MARK: Yes. I'm proud of the work that we've done collectively, but I'm really, really proud of the work that takes place every day. Every day on the floor.
MICHELLE: As we enter our second century … can you believe that? I'm just gonna say, as this organization enters the second century, we've been reflecting a lot on where we've been and where we're going. I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it to you: What's the unfinished work that you'd most like to see completed?
RHIAN: I'm a broken record, but defining a professional field of practice. You know, living into the Unifying Framework, passing model legislation that creates a profession in every state so that early childhood educators can be recognized for the unique and defined role they play in society, and they can be valued with compensation that recognized professions are valued with compensation is one and two is really putting a dent in the economics of early childhood education where it's not built on the backs of families and early childhood educators.
MARK: Yeah, I would say literally the same thing, and I'd frame it as I, I think our work, I'm not sure it'll be done, but it'll be at a next level of opportunity when there's an opportunity for every child in America to attend an affordable, accessible, high-quality early childhood program staffed by well-trained educators, and the respect for the field is one that continues to climb, and that the nation and other nations continue to believe we are about the importance of the early years for creating a trajectory of success in a person's life.
RHIAN: Wait! What's yours?
MARK: Yeah, we can't let her off the hook, can we, Rhian?
MICHELLE: Well, I, one of the moments I'm thinking too is, I came into working with you, Rhian, during the pandemic and we were still in a pandemic when you transitioned out. But one of the things that struck me was that at that moment, for a period of time, early childhood was seen as essential. That's what drove the unprecedented investments into keeping the field stable, to keeping programs open. It is what elevated this entire profession when parents were sitting at home saying, “I can't work because my child over here is needing support and I desperately need my early childhood program and the early childhood educators in in my life.” And I'd like to go back to a time where we all recognized that and then we saw the importance of investing and we saw the importance of supporting the people who do this work and the value of early childhood education to us as a country and as a community. Businesses saw it. Business leaders stepped up and said, “Nope, this is not, this is not a nice to have. It is an essential to have. Communities saw it and said, “Yeah, we need this.”
I'd like to see us go back to a time where we recognize it, because then I do think the investments follow, and then the community comes around and we all stand together and say, parents, educators, communities, business leaders, economists, researchers, we all stand behind the data, the research that's been there for years. We recognize the value of the investment and we recognize that you can't do this on the backs in the current system that we have.
Well it’s truly been an honor and a privilege to learn from the people who've carried this work before me. Thank you so much for joining me on Small Talk.
MARK: Well, thank you so much.
RHIAN: Thank you for having us.
NARRATOR: Small Talk: Big Ideas About Little Learners is brought to you by NAEYC, the National Association for the Education of Young Children, celebrating its 100th year of advocating for little learners and the early childhood education field. To learn more about today’s guests, read the transcript, or listen to other episodes of Small Talk, visit NAEYC.org/SmallTalk or find us – and subscribe – wherever you get your podcasts.
(Music)